Thanks for taking the time to provide us all with the info!…

It was great to share Jenny’s “last day of work party” today. She will be missed at DG. She has made a lasting impression on her co-workers. To God be the glory for that!

Affectionately,

Pastor john

1. I agree with Tim that repentance from idolatry exposed by suffering does not always result in the relief of that suffering. Sometimes the repentance simply allows us to cope with it (see 2 Corinthians 12)

2. Abigail’s caution about treating all suffering as discipline for specific sins is well-taken. We mustn’t turn into Job’s friends. What those three were saying wasn’t totally wrong; Deuteronomy promised curses for disobedience. But it was incomplete. My post is seeking to primarily address the kind of suffering owing to rebellion, not the less clear kind that is simply sanctifying.

3. I still have questions about Tim’s last comment about attributing the suffering of another to specific sins. I think we should be careful about this (see no. 2), but we should be prepared to call a spade a spade. If I have time, I’ll try to write a full post on this.

4. Finally, JW’s question: “repent and heals us” was too vague. Healing doesn’t necessarily include the removal of all of sin’s consequences (e.g. a drug addict may still have to go to jail, even if they repent). But it always includes restoration of fellowship, even if the pain persists.

But there is a difference between pain embraced for the sake of sanctification and pain borne because of refusal to repent of known sin. The latter can always turn into the former, but repentance and return is always the condition.

The question about gratitude is too big for now. I’ll try to return to it later.

Thanks for the engagement. Hopefully tomorrow’s post on the application to societies will clarify where I’m going with this.

Second, what are the signs of being grateful for the gift and not the giver? Thank you for the BLESSING vs. thank YOU for the blessing. The most obvious is the object of our thanks, but what other signs and warnings ought we to watch for in our “gratitude”?

In what I wrote, I was not assuming that repentance would bring “relief” from the trial. The trial is not like punishment, meant to go away once we find just the right thing to repent of. The only thing that makes the trial go away is the wisdom of God deciding when it has accomplished its purpose.

As God always does “a thousand things at once,” then it is probably near impossible for us to figure out all his purposes behind our trial. Our role in a trial is to submit to his merciful refining in our lives, even if we don’t know all the specifics of that refining.

So then, when I think of trials sanctifying us from sin, I don’t think of that as a separate purpose category for trials. Since we always have sin, we always have need of that. And as he does that, he is always bringing about perseverance, proven character, hope, steadfastness, identification with the sufferings of Christ. These are all part of his sanctifying us.

How should we care for the souls of our friends as they go through their trials? It needs to be rare when we would tell a friend that his own sin brought on their current trial, even when circumstances warrant it (say, they have an affair and now their spouse doesn’t want to live with them). Even then, the detached pronouncement of “it’s all your own fault” is usually not very helpful to their soul. Instead we want to help them see more clearly what God is shining light on in their own hearts and the grace he is showing them. Looking for the grace of God in those times is hard work. We want to help them repent as God exposes sin, see and rejoice in God’s grace to them, and develop and keep warm affections and longings for their Savor.

Tim

Abigail Dodds here, from Sunday School Thanks for your reading the Word this Sunday. It was moving.

I hope it’s ok if I respond to this.. Joe, please jump in to add corrections if needed.

I love the heart of what your saying, because it is humble and its greatest longing is for God in Christ to be our highest Treasure. I can never ever disagree with that.

That said, I hope you’ll allow me to do the same basic “tweak” that I did before. When you say, “Therefore trials are an inevitable and lifelong gift of God’s mercy.” I say yes and amen. However, the “therefore trials” following the preceding paragraph which shows how trials can be used to reveal idols, makes it sounds then like all trials are necessarily the kind that remove idols. I don’t know if I’m reading that right or not..

Yes, I agree this is part of God’s use of trials (ie removal of idols). I just don’t think it’s His only use of them. Some other uses include producing steadfastness, giving us fellowship with Christ to share in His sufferings, and to test our faith (as with Job).

You may be wondering why I feel the need to make the distinction of suffering/trials as the result of sin (ie God’s discipline in removing an idol), and suffering for other reasons. After all, we all sin, so in some ways our own sin will always be part of our trials.

It’s because if all trials are the result of idolatry or personal transgression then the repentance of that sin would include the relief of the trial. So, for a person suffering for the sake of the Gospel, or because God is developing perseverance or because their faith is being tested, the trial may never be lifted until they meet Jesus.

And we don’t want to be their Eliphaz or Bildad, continually pointing them to repentance that gains them no relief. We may cause them to despair of God’s goodness. We want to say, “Yes, God is causing this, but it is for your good and will result in future glory that you can’t imagine.” And things like, “Continue to persevere through this trial! Christ Himself sympathizes with you in it!” We need to bolster them to persevere to the very end.

Certainly in our own lives we should look for idols and sin as a first course of action when we sense God bringing a trial, but when looking at others, we must tread lightly and carefully, in order not to crush the faith of the weaker brother who may face a trial for the rest of his life, with no relief. (Hopefully there will be some relief by the comfort and love given through Christ’s body, but no end to the trial).

I hope that’s helpful. I know your heart is very compassionate, so I don’t mean that you were trying to say what I’ve just defended against.. I’m just cautioning us; that when we speak of trials/suffering we don’t necessarily associate them with sin to be repented of. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that every person who suffers a trial is a sinner in need of repentance and guilty of great sin (but Christ), yet, the trial may be for other reasons and may not be alleviated with repentance.

With love for Him and His body,
Abigail

We need sanctification because we treasure things of less worth than God. This is wicked.

For us to be sanctified we need to have the light of truth shone on these such that we see them for the weak value that they really are.

Trials are the most prominent means that God uses to shine the light of truth on these in our lives. Some we don’t even know are there until the trial comes that takes them away. Others we know are there, but we don’t fully know the extent of our valuing of them.

Therefore trials are an inevitable and lifelong gift of God’s mercy. One by one he turns us away from trusting in things other than him.

Eventually only one treasure remains, life itself. So the time of death can be a great temptation to leave God – or a great receiving of his mercy and turn one last time to him.

What do you think?

Great clarification. No disagreement at all.

What’s remarkable to me is that even though not all suffering is owing to sin, all suffering does hold out the possibility of greater holiness, sanctification, and assurance, as God casts us back onto himself as the deepest and most lasting source of satisfaction.

I know you didn’t say that but my heart is sensitive for the suffering person who may be fragile, yet their suffering is not the result of idolatry. And to them we must be careful to comfort them with the comfort God has comforted us.

Sometimes the call to repentance in order to alleviate suffering rings like condemnation in the ears of fragile saints who don’t know the cause of their suffering but have done their best to repent of sin with no alleviation of suffering.

And so the person who has cancer may not have had the idol of good health. And the person whose child has died may not have had their children as an idol. And the person who’s depressed may not have idolized joy or had unbelief. Yet God certainly uses these times to bring assurance to these suffering saints, albeit painful, bittersweet assurance.

Again, I want to affirm that you did not say suffering was always the result of idolatry in the least.. I just wanted to add this on, to give comfort to someone who might read it and hear condemnation for their suffering when they may have needed comfort.

There’s my reaction, Sir Joey; what do you think?

I’m happy that our job is to do what’s right and honoring God; our job isn’t to win. God does the winning.

I’m just not sure our society is able or willing to accept the Bible or Jesus as any kind of authority. And so, Christians may be approaching a time of minority, and not only minority, but perhaps hated and disdained.

But, maybe God will forbear a while longer with the USA and allow His Word to hold some sway in the public arena. I hope so.

A helpful post you should write sometime in the near future is how your view differs from Theonomy, as on the surface they can look very similar indeed.

Curt, when I encouraged you to check out this blog, I failed to anticipate what I was getting myself into. So consider the reference to Proverbs 17:28 a personal gift to you. If not, then Proverbs 26:3 should do nicely.

What gets me excited is that you somehow pulled a bible quote out as a legitimate reason for not commenting. That, my friend, is impressive.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your commenting. Simply knowing that someone else is reading helps to keep me from going too far off the rails.

Do you know Jason DeRouchie? I ask because I see you instruct at BCS and I know he will be too. The DeRouchies are good friends and are in our small group.

The reasons you give for his stunted rise are exactly the reasons why he wasn’t my first pick. I was a little stunned at the number of evangelicals who got on board precisely because of his “Southern Baptist-style.” I kept thinking, if evangelical is the only label you need to be fit for president then why didn’t Jimmy Carter do a better job? I think you’re right that he fell short not because of his christian rhetoric, but because of his policy positions.

Of course, Huckabee is no Carter. I like the guy a ton and really love a few of the things he did in AK. Just had some sticking points that I thought one or two other candidates were better principled on. (I hate ending a sentence with a preposition, but there it is).

Anyway, interested to hear the critical side of the analysis.

So, I was thinking that it is really important to…

Never mind, this is too scary.

Thanks for the encouragement. Finding the balance between storming the gates, exposing the liars, and casting out the wicked sons on the one hand, and loving the peoples, comforting the afflicted, and giving hope to the weak is nigh impossible. Like Luther’s drunken peasant, we often fall off one side of the horse or the other.

Feel the freedom to push this old drunk peasant back up on the horse from either side. In the abundance of counselors there is victory.

Thanks for reading, and posting!

A small add-on: If IJM wants to foster social awareness for the crimes and promote social disdain for them as well, this too begins with the Gospel. Societal morality (and appropriate disdain for immorality) extends only so far as the Gospel and the life-saving happy laws of God have permeated the people in the society.

Some society’s (based on other religions) have a form of morality but it is perverse in one way or another. I’m thinking of Muslim culture where women are chaste, albeit abused or property.

I do think deterrence and harsh penalties are effective and necessary. And the practicality of forensic science is also an important element to getting convictions. So, perhaps the US sending funds would have a short-term helping effect, but long term, what they really need are missionaries. Just like every other sin sick society.

I’m interested to hear your insights.

Thanks for contributing. I’ll have some personal thoughts at a later time.

For now, I’m wondering if any others have reactions.

On a side note, I thought their call on the U.S. Government was interesting, showing both the popular idea (even among some Christians) that the government can save us from all our social problems, and also illustrating a perfect example of the undefined call to action, “We must help them!” (Why must we? Who is We? What is real help? and who is Them?)

And going back to worldview, if government is so intent on seperating itself from “religion” and being thoroughly secular (as if that’s not a “religion” of sorts?), than on what foundation should the government do anything about situations like that? If there are no moral absolutes, if the government thinks that women should have the right to kill their babies in the name of choice and freedom, and if the government thinks that morality should not be taught in schools, than on what foundation does the government stand in making any stand against sex-traffic and related evils?

Of course, as a disclaimer, I only read that one Q&A article, and nothing else substantial on the website, so I don’t know if the article represents the entire position of the organization or not.